Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Combat and Escort

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ManOfArt
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby ManOfArt » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:55 pm

Solaias wrote:Enemy spotted at 5 o'clock high!

Well, it works. :D


it really does. it could be considered for measures. you got my vote ^^
ManOfArt
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby ManOfArt » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:59 pm

Captain Glume wrote:I would imagine space formations would be more in the 3d type.


could you more define? perhaps i would take a look at it
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby ManOfArt » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:18 pm

einnyen wrote:Common sense would dictate that you would encapsulate your cap ships with small, more easily replaced ships.

But Common Sense?!
*Screaming* THIS. IS. STAR. CITIZEN!! *kicks someone into a gravity well*


Taking formations to a truly open environment is a bit tricky because most points of reference are relative. Thus you would have to make your hard and fast reference be the flight leader/Squadron leader.

Keep in mind that most of the formations currently in use were really dreamed up in WWII to give layered levels of threat when patrolling or penetrating into enemy controlled air space. The general Air Force/Navy formations are a good starting point, however I don't know that they'll be much good for anything other than learning the basics of formation flight.

The problematic part for me is distance as it pertains to the pilots and relative points. Lets say that we use my above solution and make the Squadron Leader the absolute reference. Here's a Scenerio;

Flight: Squadron Leader/Flight Lead 1, Wing 1, Flight Lead 2, Wing 2
Formation: ArrowHead

Wing 2 reports contact to their 4 o clock. Distance at 9000km, however he's 5000km (relative) from Flight Lead 1. It isn't as simple as adding the 5000km and the 9000km, because not all the ships are on the same plane. So what, in atmosphere, would end up being roughly 14,000km might be closer to 20,000km in space. So how do we address this issue with no static and meaningful point of reference?

I have no idea, but it's something we need to think about and find a solution for. I suppose that in a patrol situation you could use distance from you current or previous nav point, however this could end up being in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers so it really would be a needle in a haystack situation.

I need to think on this some more, but my gut reaction would require that the ships in your patrol would need to stay between 10,000km and 15,000km away from one another. This gives enough room for evasive action as well as redundant radar coverage while maximizing signal to noise ratio. The formation could be a standard diamond shape as seen either from the top or rear of the ships. From the rear it provides for depth of sensor sweeps but from top it provides more width.

This is getting complicated. I need a drink or 5 to lay this all out.


and they said that I toke it seriously. I have to admit your right and thats why i picked only practical formations that can be used in game based on role play [various ship] and i find some of those formations really good. simple yet effective. but keep in mind that we want to use this basic formations for squad [4 ships], whole platoon would work absolutely different if you know what i mean.lets talk about that distance between pilots. isnt 10k-20k km too much? 5 km looks like decent distance from in-game experience. and you mean 3 dimensional diamond shape?
einnyen
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby einnyen » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:54 pm

ManOfArt wrote:
einnyen wrote:Common sense would dictate that you would encapsulate your cap ships with small, more easily replaced ships.

But Common Sense?!
*Screaming* THIS. IS. STAR. CITIZEN!! *kicks someone into a gravity well*


Taking formations to a truly open environment is a bit tricky because most points of reference are relative. Thus you would have to make your hard and fast reference be the flight leader/Squadron leader.

Keep in mind that most of the formations currently in use were really dreamed up in WWII to give layered levels of threat when patrolling or penetrating into enemy controlled air space. The general Air Force/Navy formations are a good starting point, however I don't know that they'll be much good for anything other than learning the basics of formation flight.

The problematic part for me is distance as it pertains to the pilots and relative points. Lets say that we use my above solution and make the Squadron Leader the absolute reference. Here's a Scenerio;

Flight: Squadron Leader/Flight Lead 1, Wing 1, Flight Lead 2, Wing 2
Formation: ArrowHead

Wing 2 reports contact to their 4 o clock. Distance at 9000km, however he's 5000km (relative) from Flight Lead 1. It isn't as simple as adding the 5000km and the 9000km, because not all the ships are on the same plane. So what, in atmosphere, would end up being roughly 14,000km might be closer to 20,000km in space. So how do we address this issue with no static and meaningful point of reference?

I have no idea, but it's something we need to think about and find a solution for. I suppose that in a patrol situation you could use distance from you current or previous nav point, however this could end up being in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers so it really would be a needle in a haystack situation.

I need to think on this some more, but my gut reaction would require that the ships in your patrol would need to stay between 10,000km and 15,000km away from one another. This gives enough room for evasive action as well as redundant radar coverage while maximizing signal to noise ratio. The formation could be a standard diamond shape as seen either from the top or rear of the ships. From the rear it provides for depth of sensor sweeps but from top it provides more width.

This is getting complicated. I need a drink or 5 to lay this all out.


and they said that I toke it seriously. I have to admit your right and thats why i picked only practical formations that can be used in game based on role play [various ship] and i find some of those formations really good. simple yet effective. but keep in mind that we want to use this basic formations for squad [4 ships], whole platoon would work absolutely different if you know what i mean.lets talk about that distance between pilots. isnt 10k-20k km too much? 5 km looks like decent distance from in-game experience. and you mean 3 dimensional diamond shape?


The distance between ships is never going to static. It'll be mission specific I have to think. If you're on a patrol trying to find enemy positions you'd want at least one Hornet Tracker, for the enhanced sensor suite, but preferably 2 with a normal Hornet for enemy encounters. Or if you're on a seek and destroy mission you'd only want one Tracker, a Gladius, and 2 Hornets (Again depending on what intel might know about whats already out there), although I can see having a single Tracker, 2 Gladius', and a heavy hitter to bring the pain.

If you have a couple of Trackers you'd be wise to put them a minimum of 10,000km out from one another so that your sphere of detection would be larger at all angles. Really 20,000km wouldn't be outside the bounds of feasibility due to their sensor ranges. The only real downside is how long it might take for the other wing to dogpile onto any enemies that are detected.

In a Super Hornet we can already detect enemies at 12,000 to 13,000km distance. It takes awhile to get close, admittedly which is why I can see running a couple of Gladi so that interdiction time is reduced considerably. The Tracker can hold it's own against almost anything of similar size. Where I see it falling short is when they're swarmed.


And yes I did mean a diamond shape as seen from the rear of the ships meaning that the engines of the ships make up each point in the diamond.
AEGIS - Gladius, Retaliator, Vanguard
ANVIL - F7C-M Super Hornet, T3A Gladiator
C/O - Mustang Delta
DRAKE - Herald
MISC - Hull A, Hull B, Star G
ORIGIN - M50, 350R, 325A
einnyen
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby einnyen » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:56 pm

And yes, ManOfArt, I do think about tactics entirely too much.

Situational awareness is really the only reason I come out ahead so often in our VS matches and in the Spectrum matches. Although I do have to admit that I see many people just point and shoot instead of aiming for specific areas of ships. I much prefer precision than spray and pray. :)
AEGIS - Gladius, Retaliator, Vanguard
ANVIL - F7C-M Super Hornet, T3A Gladiator
C/O - Mustang Delta
DRAKE - Herald
MISC - Hull A, Hull B, Star G
ORIGIN - M50, 350R, 325A
ManOfArt
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby ManOfArt » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:35 pm

einnyen wrote:And yes, ManOfArt, I do think about tactics entirely too much.

Situational awareness is really the only reason I come out ahead so often in our VS matches and in the Spectrum matches. Although I do have to admit that I see many people just point and shoot instead of aiming for specific areas of ships. I much prefer precision than spray and pray. :)


so sharpshooter. which ship is do currently prefer? i would like to meet in you in AC =] perhaps we could try something
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Captain Glume
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby Captain Glume » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:17 pm

einnyen wrote:And yes, ManOfArt, I do think about tactics entirely too much.

Situational awareness is really the only reason I come out ahead so often in our VS matches and in the Spectrum matches. Although I do have to admit that I see many people just point and shoot instead of aiming for specific areas of ships. I much prefer precision than spray and pray. :)

I am guilty of that. I totally don't know what is around me. I think with the Rift I will do a lot better as it would be more like driving. I wish the CryEngine supported picture in picture as to be able to put the rear camera onto a in cockpit display would be grand.
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Eris
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby Eris » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:34 pm

I'm guilty on both counts, eiinyen: I have no situational awareness and I spray and pray.

As for the first, it's because I find the radar display too visually confusing to read in the heat of combat. It really gives me no sense of where anything is unless I stop whatever else I'm doing and stare at it a moment in order to parse it. Personally, I wish they'd implemented something like the display from the original Wing Commander.

Image

The central circle is what's in front of you, the wedges around it are top, right, bottom, and left, and the outer ring is what's behind you. I can glance at that and immediately know what direction all of the hostiles and friendlies lie in. Sure it doesn't give distance, but you can see that when you target something, and I'm much more interested in knowing the direction something is in rather than it's distance. But alas, CIG has decided to go with something "more informative" and present it in a visually muddled and difficult to parse fashion with lot's of lines drawn all over each other so that it looks more like some piece of modern art than a functional display.

As for spray and pray, well I have no choice. It's too difficult to even get something in the crosshairs at all. Trying to target specific components is out of the question.
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einnyen
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby einnyen » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:57 pm

ManOfArt wrote:
einnyen wrote:And yes, ManOfArt, I do think about tactics entirely too much.

Situational awareness is really the only reason I come out ahead so often in our VS matches and in the Spectrum matches. Although I do have to admit that I see many people just point and shoot instead of aiming for specific areas of ships. I much prefer precision than spray and pray. :)


so sharpshooter. which ship is do currently prefer? i would like to meet in you in AC =] perhaps we could try something


For time on target ordinance I prefer the Gladiator or Hornet, although the Delta can put up a good fight although a little lite on gunnery options.

For Boom and Zoom its the M50 with one OmniSky III and one Sledge II each mapped to a different firing group.

The Gladius I'm not a huge fan of because while it's faster than most fighters you have a tendency to Black/Red out when taking evasive action against larger better armed opponents. It's a good middle ground between a medium fight and the interceptor class but with a lot of draw backs from each. It's an interesting ship to fly around in, but I have issues getting a good firing solution consistently. It could very well be me and the way I play though.

I detect a certain challenging air, good sir. Come join our Sunday Flights so you can weigh each persons skill on your own.
AEGIS - Gladius, Retaliator, Vanguard
ANVIL - F7C-M Super Hornet, T3A Gladiator
C/O - Mustang Delta
DRAKE - Herald
MISC - Hull A, Hull B, Star G
ORIGIN - M50, 350R, 325A
einnyen
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Re: Security Basic Commands and Tactics [SBCT]

Postby einnyen » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:03 pm

Eris wrote:I'm guilty on both counts, eiinyen: I have no situational awareness and I spray and pray.

As for the first, it's because I find the radar display too visually confusing to read in the heat of combat. It really gives me no sense of where anything is unless I stop whatever else I'm doing and stare at it a moment in order to parse it. Personally, I wish they'd implemented something like the display from the original Wing Commander.

Image

The central circle is what's in front of you, the wedges around it are top, right, bottom, and left, and the outer ring is what's behind you. I can glance at that and immediately know what direction all of the hostiles and friendlies lie in. Sure it doesn't give distance, but you can see that when you target something, and I'm much more interested in knowing the direction something is in rather than it's distance. But alas, CIG has decided to go with something "more informative" and present it in a visually muddled and difficult to parse fashion with lot's of lines drawn all over each other so that it looks more like some piece of modern art than a functional display.

As for spray and pray, well I have no choice. It's too difficult to even get something in the crosshairs at all. Trying to target specific components is out of the question.



I think you and I have had think particular discussion in Mumble, madam, and I see your points. For some the HoloGlobeOfDhoom makes perfect sense. For others it's nothing more than a pretty fish tank without fish, water, algae, or anything remotely as calming as a fish tank.

I would like to see other options for those who are having issues with the Globe, all joking aside. The Radar should be your primary way of quickly and efficiently deciphering whats going on in the space immediately around you. If it isn't I dont see that as a failure on the part of the pilot. it's a failure of the system to convey information legibly to the majority.

I don't know, off the top of my head, how I would change it though. Going back to a flat 2D Radar seems to be antithesis to the current design philosophy no matter how many people would prefer it.
AEGIS - Gladius, Retaliator, Vanguard
ANVIL - F7C-M Super Hornet, T3A Gladiator
C/O - Mustang Delta
DRAKE - Herald
MISC - Hull A, Hull B, Star G
ORIGIN - M50, 350R, 325A

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